Curse

Redfeather1975 · Feb 13, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Lesser used skills tweak suggestions

Energy Drain(5e,1c,25r)-Elite Spell. Target foe loses 2...8 Energy. You gain 2 Energy for each point of Energy lost. If target is suffering from a mesmer hex you gain an additional 1...5 extra Energy.

Mind Wrack(5e,1c,5r)-Hex Spell. For 20 seconds, the next time target foe's Energy drops to 0, that foe takes 15...60 damage and Mind Wrack ends. If this hex is removed prematurely target foe becomes dazed for 1...3 seconds.

Mirror of Disenchantment(25e,1c,10r)-Spell. Remove one Enchantment from target foe. All of that foe's party members also lose that same enchantment. For each enchantment removed in this way you gain 1...3 energy.

Lyssa's Aura(5e,1c,15r)-Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...9 seconds, whenever you are the target of an enemy Spell, you steal up to 1...6 Energy from the caster and if you using an inspiration stance you gain 10...30 health.

Discharge Enchantment(10e,1c,15r)-Spell. Remove one Enchantment from target foe. If that foe is Hexed, this you steal 1...5 energy.

Symbolic Posture(10e,20r)-Stance. For 5...17 seconds, your next Signet activates and recharges 25...45% faster.

Visions of Regret(10e,2c,20r)-Elite Hex Spell. For 5...17 seconds, target foe takes 15...39 damage whenever they attack and an extra 15...63 damage whenever that foe uses an adrenaline Skill.

PvE mechanic suggestions

Changing monster skills so that they are more of an impact and easier to interrupt? Or maybe making e-denial more useful in PvE.

A great variety of hexes with an AOE effect on enemies adjacent to one another. Enemies being adjacent to one another is rare in PvP, but common in PvE.

Each PvE group of enemies having a powerful squad leader, similar to the margonite in the kournan groups.
That squad leader would be the person the mesmer focuses on because they would have the most impact on the rest of their squad, yet be the hardest to take down.
That way the mesmers could focus on keeping the squad leader occupied while the rest of the party takes down the remaining enemies and focuses on the squad leader last.

Changing some skills so that they if the condition is met by the target all NPC foes of the same type are affected. ei. Tengu, kournan, mandragon.
That way very conditional spells would be more useful in PvE, even though they would still have the condition that activates it on the target used, the affect would also be applied to most if not all of the enemies the party is facing.

milkflopance · Feb 13, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Lesser used skills tweak suggestions

Energy Drain(5e,1c,25r)-Elite Spell. Target foe loses 2...8 Energy. You gain 2 Energy for each point of Energy lost. If target is suffering from a mesmer hex you gain an additional 1...5 extra Energy.

I think it's fine as it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Mind Wrack(5e,1c,5r)-Hex Spell. For 20 seconds, the next time target foe's Energy drops to 0, that foe takes 15...60 damage and Mind Wrack ends. If this hex is removed prematurely target foe becomes dazed for 1...3 seconds.

i like the idea of this + shatter delusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Visions of Regret(10e,2c,20r)-Elite Hex Spell. For 5...17 seconds, target foe takes 15...39 damage whenever they attack and an extra 15...63 damage whenever that foe uses an adrenaline Skill.

That + empathy would be brilliant, although it would proberbly become overused.

and that's quite a nice idea about the enemy squad leaders, although sadly, i doubt that's ever going to happen

Redfeather1975 · Feb 13, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

It would be nice if mesmer's inspiration line had some type of group e-management. I bet that would make primary mesmers wanted a whole lot more.
It would have to be something that only gives a good return if a lot of points were put into the inspiration line. It would also promote PvE mesmers specializing in inspiration! :O

milkflopance · Feb 13, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

It would be nice if mesmer's inspiration line had some type of group e-management.

That's the necro's job

Helcaraxe · Feb 13, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

That's the necro's job

and that's the kind of attitude that causes this problem.

I definitely like the skills changes you suggested, but I would also like to see a skill that functions close to epidemic, but for hexes, this would REALLY boost usefullness in PvE and wouldnt affect the PvP game too much. Here's my sample skill.

Share The Pain: If target foe is suffering from a mesmer hex, that hex is also applied along with its remaining duration to (1...5) other foes in the area. [15e, 30r] (Inspiration Spell)

And for the group e-management maybe something like...

Energy Burst: You lose all energy, Target touched ally and all adjacent allies gain (25...100) percent of the energy lost. [5e, 20r] (Elite Inspiration Spell)

Redfeather1975 · Feb 14, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

That's the necro's job

I was wondering about that, but I was thinking about the paragon!

Would it be so bad to have more than a select profession allowing group e-management in some form? For a mesmer it would be very different because the e-management would come from existing spells, so it would be group e-managment attained through a mesmer using a skill at just the right moment under just the right condition to activate.

I also think it would be very PvE cool if some skill tweaks or new spell functionality of spells allowed mesmers to aid group members with their abilities. Such as a distortion like spell that can be placed on an ally in danger, or a fast casting spell that can augment an allies casting speed temporarily, or Lyssa's Aura, being castable on an ally so that they get the benefit of the energy instead. Those types of functionality changes would make PvE groups see the mesmer as also a profession that can augment or aid any other profession in different forms, perhaps making the profession not only more appealing to PUGs, but also give the mesmer more options during any type of PvE area.

pingu666 · Feb 14, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

energy drain is pretty poor compaired to GoLE. i mean i could stick 14+ points into inspiration, and have something half as good as GoLE. YAY! cronic shame i miss out on using a brillant elite from nightfall tho

. energy denial in pve = who cares they will be dead by the time it matters, plus its a weakness to haveto target a foe for your energy management.

aoe hex's, how about sirens wail, target foe and all foes in the area are deafened by sirens wail, and cannot hear shouts. suffer -1..3 health degen
(or u could do it as the mesmer is the center of the aoe) (or cause bleeding?)

deadly obsesion, if target foe is under the effects of a mesmer hex, that foe suffers from dazed, blind/weakness. maybe make this a touch skill ?

shellshock, target foe/nearby foes suffer from weakness, and 1 other random condition (a normal, and a elite version)

paranoia, target foes attacks + spells damage all adjanst friends and foes

narasistic power, if target foe is under a mesmer hex, you deal some insignificant damage, and gain some small amount of energy. (like glowing glaze)

playful tease, form, turn into dita von tease, all foes in the area are weakend, dazed. all adasent allies gain 5e +3adrenal, allies in area gain 2e and 1 strike of adrenaline. elite

maybe have -10 armour.

preporation of power: your next 2...x spells cost x....x less energy. attibute fast casting, make it poor at 0, about as good as GoLE at 9~, maybe cap its effeicency gain with levels.

interupt: something that interupts skills, but with a quick recarge. something on par with savage shot/distracting shot

have fast casting reduce aftercast delay

pingu666 · Feb 14, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

yeah, theres rarely a point in picking a mesmer over another profesion in pugs, apart from 1 saving grace. mesmers are least likely tobe played by some idiot.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 14, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Pingu, I'm not sure the devs would want to make mesmers more powerful, but instead give them more diversity in what roles they can play.
Currently I can only think of 2 spells that a mesmer can use on an ally and they are both one type of skill, Ancestor/Sympathetic Visage.
It may be that a support option is given by tweaking certain skills, or possibly certain skills are tweaked to synergize better with other professions.
Either way, if any type of tweaking is done it won't be for a while, so I'm spent on suggestions for now. Time to get some sleep so I can go to work bright eyed and bushy tailed tomorrow morning. lol

Cebe · Feb 14, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Visions of Regret(10e,2c,20r)-Elite Hex Spell. For 5...17 seconds, target foe takes 15...39 damage whenever they attack and an extra 15...63 damage whenever that foe uses an adrenaline Skill.

That + empathy would be brilliant, although it would proberbly become overused.

Not to mention PvP wammos will start crying "Nerf!, Nerf!...It can't be countered with mending!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

That's the necro's job

and that's the kind of attitude that causes this problem.

What? What problem? Group energy management IS the necro's job...and now the Paragon is reasonably adept at that as well...even after the nerf, Aria of Zeal isn't too bad...along with the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

Share The Pain: If target foe is suffering from a mesmer hex, that hex is also applied along with its remaining duration to (1...5) other foes in the area. [15e, 30r] (Inspiration Spell)

That would be way over powered. Would need to be 25 energy and maybe a longer recharge...also only adjacent foes and you would need to state a maximum duration. Imagine if you had Mantra of Persistance on and you cast Conjure Nightmare...then spread that to all foes in the area...that could be 8 health degeneration for a very long time for all foes in that area...The thought of a boss using that skill on you when you're trying to cap his elite just makes me want to cry.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 14, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

It would really be interesting, tweaking the skills to do damage to adjacent foes. It would be more useful in PvE than in PvP because in PvE mobs huddle closely together because they are not smart like human players. It would give mesmer's a damage role, yet still fall into the conditionally activated category that mesmer spells fall into.
For example...
Overload(5e,1/4c,3r)-Target foe takes 5...30 damage. If that foe was casting a spell, you deal +5...30 damage to target and foes adjacent to target foe.

gaborm · Feb 14, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

It would really be interesting, tweaking the skills to do damage to adjacent foes.

Wasn't Spiritual Pain just nerfed heavily for who knows what reason? I think SP should be changed to replace the spirit condition with something more common in pve, like target foe hexed/enchanted/etc.

g

Avarre · Feb 14, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaborm

Wasn't Spiritual Pain just nerfed heavily for who knows what reason?

It was nerfed because giving an armor-ignoring, near to instant, high damage, aoe spike skill, in a line that is already incredibly powerful for shutdown and stopping counters to spikes, is simply silly.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 14, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Oh one more suggestion.
The abilitiy to see enemy energy bars in PVE.
Similar to heros, but perhaps a very slim blue bar under their health.

gaborm · Feb 14, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It was nerfed because giving an armor-ignoring, near to instant, high damage, aoe spike skill, in a line that is already incredibly powerful for shutdown and stopping counters to spikes, is simply silly.

My accent was on the "heavy". Sure it was a very strong spell which needed to be smoothed.

windcaller · Feb 14, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

they could've increased the casting time of sp. Making it 3seconds would've eliminated many issues.

*Darcy* · Feb 14, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I think the main problem the devs had with Spiritual Pain is that so many players use an X/Me build just to gain access to spells like that.

I think more skills should be in the Fast Casting line to avoid overuse by X/Me types.

I also don't feel that the mesmer is underpowered. From where did the concept that every class MUST be a direct damage dealer come? A mesmer has always been an in-direct caster:

- in PvP, making a foe unable to fight/cast until someone helps them means two players stopped.

- in PvE, foes fighting/casting through the applied skills means faster deaths thus less damage to group.

Now people want a "wammo" version of a mesmer, that can kill everything on their own and heal themselves also, so that the mesmer can replace any other profession in the group. That would be the death of the mesmer. A completely different profession would have been created.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 14, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Not really underpowered, just underused.

Only because of how the majority of mesmer spells work and how PvE works.
I talked about this on gwonline, but there are tons of mesmer skills that do energy denial, yet in PVE e-denial is nowhere near as effective as it would be in PvP. So what does that mean?
It means that if a mesmer sees an e-denial/e-managment skill and a straight e-managment skill, they will always choose the latter, because it is the most effective at what the mesmer needs.
That unfortunatley greatly limits the usefullness of skills and versatility of mesmer skills used in PvE builds.
E-denial is just an example of the differing mechanics between PvP and PvE and how it impacts the mesmer's usefullness/options as a whole in PvE. The mesmer has MANY half breed skills that are very ineffective in PvE because they only do half the job of other mesmer skills considering that the other half of the skill is pointless to use in PvE.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

I think the main problem the devs had with Spiritual Pain is that so many players use an X/Me build just to gain access to spells like that.

Actually, it was that you could run five mesmers that could deliver an 800+ damage spike in around one second (SP+WD), and still have 4 standard slots, a res sig, and an elite skill, while being maxed in a line built to stop people from being able to do what they want (stop spikes). Domination skills are notably powerful with non-elites, and adding one of the best spikes to the best shutdown was just... no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

It means that if a mesmer sees an e-denial/e-managment skill and a straight e-managment skill, they will always choose the latter, because it is the most effective at what the mesmer needs.

The point of Energy Drain stopped being edenial back in 2005. The function of it as compared to Mantra of Recall is that you can get energy on demand, which has some advantages over the timed returns off MoR. Energy Drain was my elite of choice in PvE for most of Nightfall, until I stopped caring and just ran Glyphed spiritual pain.

Yes, mesmers are some of the weakest potential PvE classes, but a vast part of it is the terrible, terrible builds people use. I think some of these additions are a little interesting (Visions becoming more like empathy with a boost, less like superconditional crap), I don't agree with the Mind Wrack change, you're essentially changing the entire purpose of the skill, and it isn't broken to require it.

Shanaeri Rynale · Feb 15, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

The easiest way to make mesmers more useful in Pve, as i'm sure has been said many times before is to change some of the skill sets of the mobs. Most PvE monster monks are laughable for example.

Now, there are tons of mesmer skills that need a buff, and moving some, for example energy management skills into fast casting could help, but in what areas are mesmers most wanted? The ones with hard to take down monk and caster bosses/mobs. Willa, Mungri to name but two

Improve the mob skill set and we'll be wanted more; without having to OP skills in PvP. I kinda hope the new hard mode will do this, otherwise HM will just become a see who can kill the fastest aoe rampage.

Really more should be made of the fast casting line. Not only does it encourage people to play the profession, but it's also a nifty way to move potentially OP skills out of say the Dom line and into somewhere where only primary mesmers can use them.

They have done the same with Divine favor for monks for example.

As for a wishlist
o I've always wanted more Aoe interupts, like CoF but the victims lose/you gain energy.
o A nice scalable version of SP would be nice. Probably on a par with Desecrate Enchantments
o Something to keep paragons quiet.

In anycase, I feel changes to the skillset of mobs is the easiest way to improve the 'we need a mesmer' factor